This interview with Harvey A. Warren is taking place at the Rancho Santa Fe Historical Society in Rancho Santa Fe, California. My name is Fran Foley. I'm the Interviewer for the Rancho Santa Fe Historical Society and the Curator and Archivist here. The Rancho Santa Fe Historical Society is collecting and recording World War II oral histories from veterans in Rancho Santa Fe and the surrounding area. Copies of this recording will be made and given to the veteran, the Library of Congress in Washington, D.C. and the D-Day Museum in New Orleans, Louisiana.

Would you please tell us your name, your date of birth and your current address?

I'm Harvey Warren.

And your date of birth?

I was born on February 27, 1916 and I live at 3634 7th Avenue, Condominium 14G, San Diego, California, 92103.

And what war and in what branch of the service did you serve, Harvey?

I was in World War II and I was in the Navy...I was in the reserves, USNR.

And what was your rank?

I went in as an ensign and came out a lieutenant.

And where did you serve? What theater?

I was in photographic interpretation.

In....?

In Washington, D.C. there is the Photographic Center in Anacosta on the airfield.

And in what theater of operations did you serve when you went overseas?

When I went overseas I was in the European theater.

O.K., great. And were you drafted or did you enlist?

I enlisted. In the draft I was 4F and I wanted... .all my comrades were going into the service and so I thought I could be choosy and take very special things....very special field, which is photographic interpretation, in the Navy. And it's very difficult to get in because only 500 were taken into that field.

O.K., well, let's back up second. Where were you when Pearl Harbor happened?

I was duck hunting. I was outside a little country town outside of Tacoma, Washington. I was with my dad and... .Pearl Harbor day... I'll never forget it.

Were you in school at the time?

Pardon?

Were you in school at the time?

Oh, no, no...I had graduated in 1940 from the University of Washington.

And what was your degree in?

Bachelor of Architecture.

O.K., and were you living at home at the time or were you married?

No, I was living in Los Angeles and I had already by that time...I had already been drafted and my 4F in the draft and I'd already...I'd been located in the Navy...they were going to take me.

O.K., and what was your reaction when you heard about Pearl Harbor?

Well, I didn't believe it. I couldn't believe it. I was in a very little tiny country house that a couple of Indians were living. They were friends of my grandmother and grandfather... .going way back into the 1880' s.

Now was this in the state of Washington or in Los Angeles?

No, this is in...out by Roy, Washington, 20 miles south of Tacoma. And Maude and Hubert Renn had a turkey ranch and they had lakes and we went duck hunting there. No one else could go duck hunting.

And so that's where you were when you heard about Pearl Harbor?

Yes, they had the radio on and I didn't go into the house...I sat outside on the porch, but I heard about Pearl Harbor, but I didn't believe it.

And you actually entered the service in terms of enlisting, right?

Yes.

On May 9, 1942, is that correct?

May 9, 1942, yeah. Yes. Yes, that's right. But you see, I was tied up with the Navy for long before then.

How so?

Well, they accepted me...that I was going to go into the School of Photographic Interpretation, but they weren't ready for me to go into the service yet.

So you actually....your actual active service began in May of 1942 then.

May of 1942.

O.K. And where did you do your basic training?

My basic training was at...they called it "indoctrination"...in Tucson, Arizona at the university. And it was for 90 days...I was there, I know, Thanksgiving and Christmas and up to oh, February I believe before I went on to Washington.

O.K., and what was that like?

The indoctrination? It was in Life Magazine.....the largest bedroom in the world with 5,000 men in this tremendous gymnasium.

And what was....what was....I mean, what is your opinion of your basic training that you took? You said you were there for 90 days....?

Yes, well....

What was that like? I mean, did you feel like you got adequate training or you remember any of your instructors? Here you are a young man just going into the service....what was that like?

It was great. I liked it. I had...and I liked the instructors. I liked particularly one young JG in particular because we failed to clean the toilet properly. And so he had us stand and he demonstrated how a toilet should be cleaned. Well, that helped me later on because when I was in the service and I had some enlisted men cleaning the toilets for an inspection, I went in there and I didn't pass their cleaning...I said, "You guys can get me that....," and I did exactly what this JG did. I got on my hands and knees and I cleaned that toilet up. They said, "Oh, Ensign Warren, you can't do that. You can't do that...you're not supposed to!" They did it...they got all the toilets just sparkling.

And did you get training in Tucson with rifles....you know, artillery? What were some of the courses or things that they put you through?

Well, it was very much a university course, I'd say...ordnance, study about how the different cannons and the different ammunitions. And then you had to study about navigation and Navy regs in particular and all Navy protocol.

And when you left there, did you feel like you'd gotten adequate training to go on to your next training_____?

Yes, yes, as far as going into the School of Photographic Interpretation. But I didn't feel that I had enough training, let's say to take command of the JOC in Cherbourg...

Now....so from Tucson, where did you go next?

To Memphis, Tennessee.

That was your advanced training, right?

No, that was where they...they weren't quite ready for me at the school, so I had to go someplace, so they put a few of us into Millington Navy Air Station and I was a personnel officer.

O.K. How long were you there?

It must have been about three months.

O.K.

And then I went back to Washington.

And what did you do in Washington?

Just went to school.....photographic....

That's where you learned photographic intelligence?

Yeah, well you had your serial pictures and you had the glasses and you had to identify all sorts of things like, you know...which I could...like trap shooting, skeet shooting, a rolling mill...and all sorts of industrial plants and what.....it's so you could identify on the ground what you see.

And your architectural training must have come in handy.

Yes. Now the school was fabulous, I thought, because they took men who had graduated foresters.....they knew the terrain of forests...and geologists and architects. Architects were the most valuable because, after all, our bombing was bombing targets of industrial plants and ammunition plants. We had to know how they were organized as far as planned.

O.K., while you were in Washington....you said that you were there for another three months?

Yes.

O.K., what was life like in D.C. back in those days?

Well...

And this would have been late 1942 when you were in Washington?

Yes.

Or early '43?

Let's see...I went to Washington...I was there, I know in March, April and May, but that must have been in '42 because...now I'm just lost in time.

Well that's all right.

But it was either late '42 or early '43.

If you were 6 months....

Early '43 because January 1 I was in London of '44.

O.K.

See, so it's '43 I was in Washington.

O.K. and what was life like back then?

Pardon?

What was life like back in Washington in those days?

Well...

When you weren't studying, what were you doing?

See...i don't...I lived in...oh, well, go to the movies, go downtown. Oh, I loved going to the monuments and the mall and going into Congress. Whenever I had a moment I was really enjoying...

Where were you...where were all you young men billeted? I mean, where did you stay at night?

We had to find our own billets in rooming houses. We didn't have a BOQ where we could live in. There was a BOQ, but it wasn't a residential BOQ out at the base. No, I lived at...strangely enough, I lived with the Warrens. No relations to me at all, but they were just one block from the Capital Building. Oh, o.k. And I loved the Polk Gallery and...I really enjoyed Washington.

Oh, good. So you had a little bit of a social life when you weren't studying and of course there were lots of women there, weren't there, back in those days?

Well, I met a gal in Memphis and she came to Washington.

What was her name?

Marjorie...Marjorie Walker. I met her in...another little joke too, because it was sort of like when you get to be 27 and you have not have had a successful encounter in the romantic and you see the gal you like...oh, boy! And she liked me. So she came to Washington so that she could see me because she knew I was going to leave, I think, on the first of July...my orders. And we had such a brief...

Relationship.

...relationship. So my social life was pretty well taken up with her, but I didn't have much time for a social life.

And is this the lady that you later married?

Yes. In fact, I didn't go...see, I was to go to Pearl in July and I found out, well, I'll be going to London instead in the end of December. And I thought, "Well, what am I waiting for?"

So you got married?

Yes, but I sent her home and said it wasn't in my plans to get married while I was in the service. But how crazy these things....as stupid as it is...I got her on the train and said good-bye and I said we'll write. And she didn't believe I'd ever write her or see her again. And she got on the train broken-hearted and I'm walking home from the railroad station and go by a movie house and it was "Now Voyager." When I got through and got back to my room, I said, "I want to be a voyager. I'm going to propose to her in a letter."

So you got married before you went to Washington...I mean before you went to London.

Yes.

O.K., well, you know that was not uncommon back in those days for...

I know, but you see there was...

...people to decide to...since they found out they were going to go overseas...to kind of rush the wedding plans, as it were.

Oh, we had a wonderful wedding.

That's great, that's great.

A wonderful wedding.

So let's...so you were married when you went to London. And so from Washington you shipped out to London. And did you...was your transport by ship?

Yes, we went to New York right after Christmas and I think it was on the 26th of December I had said good-bye and I got in on the Mauritania, which was a luxury liner all fitted with bunks and so forth in the lovely suites. And it was more than just a troop ship because there was the British admiral...I mean the British ambassador on board and a whole bunch of Red Cross girls and it was very nice. We no longer got out in the harbor and we rammed a ship and had to go back.

Really?

But we had to stay on the ship while they were repairing...making repairs.

This was in New York Harbor?

New York Harbor.

Oh my goodness.

And it was not...it was a clear daylight...I mean crystal clear sunlight. There was just an error in navigation and we were rammed.

And so when you actually left New York Harbor, what month was that?

That was the end of December.

And what was it like when you got out on the seas...on the 'Pond' as they call it?

On the Big Pond we were being chased by German U-boats until they had shut down all sound on board and we drifted for 11 days before we got to Liverpool.

Wow. And what was the weather like? Did you have rough seas or was the sailing pretty smooth with the exception of the U-boats?

It was very smooth, no problem. No problem, that's interesting. I was shocked, though, about watching all these Army officers and the Red Cross girls playing bridge for a dollar a point.

So you were an ensign when you went over, right?

Yes, uh-huh.

And so did they have set up on the ship officer's mess and you know, with it segregated as to military rank as to where people ate? What was that like? I mean what was it?

Well, fortunately there were only four Navy on the ship...four JGs going over.

So you all ate together?

We were all together and we sat at the captain's table, which was very nice.

How many people went over on the ship? Do you recall how many...thousands?

Thousands, yes. I mean it was loaded. They put into a little stateroom...they got as many as six officers in which it was only for two people.

So tell us what happened after you got to London. What was your next assignment...where did you go?

We got to Liverpool in the fog and I could look down and see nothing but I could hear the "Beer Barrel Polka" being played and it was beautiful....that Scottish band. Then when we got off the ship I could see them very dimly when they were only 5 feet away. I went in and caught the train for London. There was a delay, of course...of finding and getting the tickets and all that arranged. We had to go to many different offices before they could find who we were.

Your assignment or your orders were to go to London to...

To go...

...to check in where?

We were to check into a British intelligence section...in fact in old Peter Robinson's Department Store off of Oxford Circus. That's right off Regency Street. And I didn't realize that it was the most important intelligence section in London right working directly under Ike. In fact I was met at the train....the four of us were met at the train by no one less than Ike's good friend, Red, and she was our driver. There were no other Navy in town there except Douglas Fairbanks, Jr....he was Navy and he was in London. I don't know what he was doing. And then there was one man that was...this one Navy officer in that intelligence section that was from our school. He was there for about six weeks in town and then we came over.

So you were assigned to British intelligence?

Yes.

And...so tell us a little bit about those first days when you got...you know, when you checked in with British intelligence and you went to work. Just kind of describe what that daily routine was like. What were some of the duties and what were you learning...

There was only one thing that I was asked to do and that is...see, there were five of us and one of our...one of the senior of our JGs wanted to set up a British...an American section in the British section and the British colonel would not allow that. He said, "Four of you can set up an American section but we want one of your men." And so I was the man that was designated.

And what did you do? What was your daily routine like?

Well, that very first day I didn't know what my daily routine was. I was given a pile of photographs about 2 foot high, a stack of white paper and some pencils and asked to write a report. And so I wrote a report and I was glad that I didn't have to fill up a mimeographed sheet...I could make it exactly the way I wanted to. And I went through all these photographs...I went through them over and over again and the captain had warned me. He said, "Now, no one knows what's going in this certain area. See if you can find that area and can you tell us what's going on?" And he said, "Go through them all rapidly and then go through them all slowly," which I did. And I knew there was a lot of excavation...I could see they were digging and putting in foundations and the foundations were for casemated batteries.

And these photographs you were looking at...what were they?

They were regular sortie photographs....oh, they were...I don't know, 9x9 about...

and you looked at them in stereo in your glasses and...

But what areas were you looking at?

Oh, that was the Normandy invasion area.

Oh, o.k.

That was the important area and I drew up....what happened...I took this whole photograph up to today...the construction and what was going on and started my report. I went back to the Red Cross Club...I didn't have a place to stay yet and I wasn't finished with that report until after 7:00. They'd stay open until 11:00 at night. And the next morning when I came in, the colonel called me in immediately and he was very pleased. He said, "Everyone in this section has gone through these pictures and even the American heading up the American section....they didn't know what was going on...they couldn't tell." He said, "Why didn't you call it Air Coastal Defense Battery?" I said, "I wanted you to know what it was from our drawings."

Did they have...when you...the first day when you went through all these photographs, how long do you think that British intelligence had had these photographs in hand or how long had they been working on this Normandy situation?

There were about 6 weeks of photographs. I had photographs 6 weeks ago and I had the photographs of that very same day, see? You'd get the latest photographs. You get the photographs that were shot in the morning, 9 in the afternoon...what was shot in the afternoon and the next morning. We kept very up to date on the photographs.

Was that first day kind of overwhelming for you? You know, you come in and there's a big pile of photographs for you?

No, I loved the challenge. I loved it....and everyone in the section. Now all this section...all these British gentlemen were, for the most part, from Oxford and they were all in French and the language German and French and they were all associate professors or assistant professors or professors, but the young ones were not quite....Well, anyway, when the colonel told me like that my second day that I was going to be in charge of the Martian Report that on Ike's desk at 4:00 every morning...

What's the Martian Report?

The Martian Report is just the secret name for the reports from that section. O.K. And that was on...and I even had through the chain compliments from Ike. He knew my name...he didn't know me, though. Well, anyhow, it was great. But what happened actually the next day....my hours were from 7:00 in the morning till 7:00 at night and 7:00 in the morning till 11:00 at night every other day, with every tenth day off. But that's an awful lot of hours putting in, but its fascinating work and I didn't mind it at all. But the American hours were from 9:00 in the morning till 3:00 in the afternoon and an hour or an hour and a half off for lunch. So...now my predecessors would not abide by the British hours, but after being....making that first report and the importance they gave to it, I thought I was dedicated to the invasion. It was as much my war as the British war, so I abided by their hours. And of course the Americans___________ My captain called me and said, "You are an American Navy officer and you abide by the American Navy hours."

You were making them look bad.

And I said, "I can't do that." I said, "I'm in a British section and I can't do that. I have too many responsibilities riding here." And he said, "Well, what are they?" I said, "They're secret...I can't tell you." Right away I knew when D-Day was...I knew all the secrets...

How far in advance of the actual invasion date did you...were you aware that those dates had been picked?

Well, I would say...oh, the end of April it was set. June the 3rd was going to be D-Day and as June the 3rd approached, we had to put it off and put it off....to the last day we could put it off, according to the tide and the moon and all that....was the 6 . We couldn't put it off any later than the 6th. Because we weren't ready for the invasion. We had to go in unready.

Right.

But it was such a mammoth....it was such a mammoth event of all those ships. There were ships as far as you could see.

Now your job was photographic intelligence...analyzing photographs and writing the reports and that kind of thing. Were you involved in any of the planning of the quantity of ships, troops...that kind of thing?

No, no...I was just...I was...just the mapmaking of the invasion area and the...our casemated batteries were my specialty. I did know when I came across some photographs that looked like a strange installation of some sort....like skis on the ground...we called them ski sites...that went to a special section, which they were working on those ski sites. Those ski sites is what later was the buzz bombs that flew over London from these ski sites.

Now when you noted those ski sites and other things that you discovered in your photographic analyzation, what was the next procedure if you found something unusual....like the ski sites for an example. Where did that report go next?

I referred the ski sites to the special section. But I didn't find anything in the photographs that were unusual, except at Sottevast and big earthworks Sottevast. And Valognes is...they're all close together and I remember them individually but...well, anyhow.

Well, here's your report on Valognes right here.

Yeah. The key site that I first found...and it's in the little book...the very first one that I sent a report on and that I...that would be so important that I had the British brass come over and I had to show them the ski sites. In the meantime, after I found that first one, I found Bricquebec and Sottevast, there were big earth.... Excavations......excavations and all the earth work going on, so I took them to those sites as well. But I couldn't make heads or tails out of them...neither could they. But we do know that they were installations for the V-2s...the great big heavy...

Rockets.

...yeah...rockets. So...but the one that amazed me working in that British section in London...I didn't mind my hours at all because my orders were that when D-Day comes, I go home to Washington. And when I was enlisted...see, I was 4F in the draft...the Navy put me in the hospital in Long Beach for three days and then they didn't know whether to take me or not because of my physical health condition and they said, "Well, photographic interpretation...that's a desk job. You'll never encounter battle. They'll never...you'll be at a desk all the time. Pass him."

All right, now while you were in London doing your photographic intelligence work for the British intelligence section, you worked long hours and what was some of the...this was your first time to Europe?

Um-hmm.

To London?

Yes.

So what were some of your other activities while you were there? Between now and when you went over at D-Day?

Well, I loved...you mean when I had a day off? I loved going punting on the Thames or at night, if I went by and go to a theater. Oh, I've seen a lot of..."Panama Hattie," "Arsenic and Old Lace," and it was like oh..."Panama Hattie" was with D. B. Daniels and Ben Lyon and "Arsenic and Old Lace," I don't...then I saw the Lunts and Fontaines in "Oh There Shall Be No Night," or something of that sort. But come Monday, I was coming back at Hammersmith, I saw that there was a ballet and I loved this ballet, so I thought I would go in and get up at Hammersmith, which I did. And I bought my ticket to "Giselle" and went across the street and sat down on a stool in a little coffee shop...American style coffee shop where you sit at a counter...and a British officer looking at the ballet book next to me and so we struck up a conversation and he was going to "Anthony" and he was looking at his own book that he had just...come off the press and he was going to the ballet and I was going to the ballet. He said at the interval that we should meet...that he had a companion...a lady. He said, "Now, don't be alarmed because she is a character. She likes Elizabeth Barrett Browning and she dresses Elizabeth Barrett Browning in the old costumes of that day in modern day London." And here she came with her head all in curls and the taffeta dress to the floor and big sleeves. I met her and she invited me to supper at the house with Sir Gordon Anthony. So we go and have supper at her house and it was a delightful evening. It was very much...very interesting. He was an interesting character.

Is that when you met Margot...?

I never met Margot Fonteyn.

Oh that's right, you never did get a chance.

I never did.

She was supposed to be there though, right?

But walking home...it was on the way going to Anthony...he lived on the way to where I lived, so we walked together. And then he asked me to come in and have a nightcap and it was my day off and I thought well, I could go in. There were photographs of the king and the queen and Churchill--life size in the great big studio he had. And then he showed me all these pictures of Margot Fonteyn. He said he was engaged to Margot Fonteyn and he said that if I could and he set the date...I forget the exact date, but I could of course. With my long hours and what I worked with in the British section....the captain said, "You can come and go as you like" many times...I mean the colonel. Because I was there most of the time. So I accepted a ballet...to see the grand opening of "Sleeping Beauty." Of course the ballets, see, they'd start at 7:00...all the theaters started early at 7:00 and you had dinner afterwards. The reason being, we were on double daylight saving time and when you got out of the theater at 11:00, 11:30 it was still daylight and you could get home...air raids didn't start till after dark at midnight. And so everything was all coordinated with the war.

By the way, what was that like being over there with the bombings and the air raids and...?

Well, they were so well organized that it was like they didn't know what peace was like. They don't remember what it was not having a war. After 40 years, you see, you get used to knowing when air raids...it used to be that it was chaos, but now when you went to a little dinner party, let's say, all the ladies would bring their sand buckets and their buckets and a little shovel and if an air raid...there were all these incendiary bombs...

Right.

...and they'd go up and climb up on the roof and then they'd put a little sand on top of all the little flames and the fires were out in no time.

Now what was your reaction like the first time you got involved with an air raid?

Well, the first time was when I got off the train in London and Red met us...the four of us...and we got into a lorrie that she was driving and I was in the front seat with her and there were little flames all over the street. They had an air raid had gone by and she got out of the cab, picked up her bucket of little sand, went up and put a little sand in all the little flaming...

That was your introduction to...

That was my introduction to London.

Now when you refer to "Red," who are you referring to?

Who?

When you call this woman "Red"?

Are you referring to Kate Summersby?

It must be her.

O.K.

So getting back to...well, I just want to touch briefly on this.

So you never did get a chance to go with Gordon Anthony to meet Margot?

No... later that...at 4:00 the date I was to leave at 5:00 to go get dressed to get to the theater by 7:00, I was told that...at 4:00...at 6:00 I had to be at Victoria Station...I was heading for the coast.

And what date...do you remember the date?

No, the exact date I could not say.

And what...?

It was the same date that she was opening up in the...we couldn't keep a diary. That was 1940-----? '44.

And do you remember the month?

So you got orders to head to the coast in May.

Yes, and I couldn't even telephone and cancel out my social engagement, let alone telephone my landlady and tell her that I won't be there to pay the rent, I won't be there to pay to telephone, I won't be there to pay the utilities. And I was complaining to the colonel about that and he said, "The War Department will take care of all that. You're to tell no one that you're leaving and tell no one. You can call no one, you just have to get to Victoria Station." And he said, "Red is waiting for you right now down at the terminal."

Now when you received those orders to go, did you know what your assignment was going to be?

Yes.

And what was that?

Make it...I had verbal orders...you're going to land in Normandy not attached to any unit...just go in and make yourself useful.

Make yourself useful? What did that mean to you? Or what did you think it meant?

Well, I didn't know what to think. I'll tell you, first when you land self-survival is all you're thinking of. You're just staying alive. It was nothing but chaos that first...

The first day...

...first day. The first night...though I sort of lucked it out. I always attached myself to someone that I think maybe can help me. In this case it was an American Army general.

Do you remember his name?

No. I just saw him that one night. We had put our bedrolls out together. He slept in one and I slept in another. It was right behind a battery of guns shooting...you know...jFran Foley:: Well, let me backtrack a minute so I want to make sure we get this clear. So you received orders to go to Victoria Station to depart for the English coast.

Yes.

And where was that...where was the train to take you?

I was given tickets at the station. I didn't know who was giving me the tickets, but they just came up to me and gave me my tickets. Now I was alone because the others...all the other Americans...there were three others.. .they went to Scotland for training for six weeks for the invasion.

And where was your ticket to?

My ticket was to Bath.

To Bath.

To Bath, England. But you see when we got to Bath, then someone would give me a ticket at Bath to see where I would go, so no one could follow me as far as...they'd know I was going to go to Bath, but they wouldn't know where I'd go beyond that.

And Bath is in the western part of England, so...

Yes.

So from Bath where did you go?

To Plymouth. O.K. And then to Plymouth I met some others that were in our task group. It was a task group but we all worked independently...we didn't work together. And then we spent the night in Plymouth and then the next day we got into a...oh, a command car...its larger than a Jeep....and headed towards Bristol. And I being the junior officer of them they said, "Now Warren, we want to have lunch. Would you stop someplace and have lunch?" I didn't know the roads or nothing and I didn't know where we could stop and have lunch. So I...watched and I said, "Stop." Up on the hill was an old hotel and I said, "We can go up there for lunch." So they drove up there. I walked into the front door and there's all these elderly people...they all scrambled and hid behind sofas and they were peeking....they thought I was a Nazi and had invaded England. I found out it was a hotel, but now it was accommodating the elderly from London. Like a rest home. And the...

All of this is taking place, say, toward the end of May, right?

Yes.

Like maybe the last couple of weeks of May when you had actually left London.

Yes. In a roundabout way. That lunch, though, was interesting in that they said, "We don't serve lunch after a certain time." I forget what it was. And I said, "Well, could we have lunch at all?" He said, "Well, we can't give you a menu." And I said, "Can you just sit us out in the kitchen and sit us...there's just only the five of us....and we'll eat anything you could bring out of the refrigerator." Well, we had a ball. All the kitchen help sat around the table and we just talked and had a wonderful time.

By the way, what was the food like in England? That was quite different from American food.

Well, I'll tell you...

Did you like it?

The transportation was difficult. But in Devonshire...this is Devonshire. Oh, that Devonshire cream and the food we had....you couldn't get it to London, but we had an abundance of food...

In the country.

...in the country.

And now I want to backtrack a minute. When you went over the Channel, did you have maps with you? Did you have those Bigot maps with you? And why don't you explain what those are.

Well, they are maps that were made in our section in London from...they started making them from Dunkirk on because all the war maps and Army maps were in Paris and they had no maps of France at all. So they had to fly sorties all over France to make a new map of France and they did all of France. Now they had some help...you have telephone books and you had the road maps and city plans and so forth like that, so that you could...with all the intelligence coming in, you could find out where different industries were and you had city plans....but we had to work both ways. In the countryside we had nothing.

Well, tell us about these Bigot maps. They were top secret, is that correct?

Bigot is the most secret of...there's Bigot and there's top secret and then secret...those three classifications. And then there's another classification--restricted.

And what did Bigot mean?

Bigot means that it should be in the hands of only those that are....

Have a need to know?

Yes, um-hmm.

So that was a higher classification than top secret?

See, there's a copy number you had...its issued to everyone...its issued that their number...and so that it's secret, see?

Now that was...was that a higher classification than top secret?

That's the highest classification, um-hmm.

So Harvey, we're talking about these Bigot maps. Can you kind of explain what that meant in terms of not only people who were drawing the maps, but what it meant in terms of planning the invasion?

Well, the maps were made in our section and you had the original maps from the photo of air maps making, but we had to keep all of the defenses up to date...whether there was barbed wires or mining or casemated batteries or trenches...any defense where we wanted to know. So it was done by overlays that we would take the map of a certain date and overlay it

Now you can see that it's a Bigot map and the copy number there and information as of the 4th of May, '44. Well, I would my overlay over this and it would be....go to print and it would be printed on...the information as of the 11th of May of '44. See, it's done by overlays that goes to the printers.

And as you can see, there's mine fields and there's all sorts of gun emplacements and fortifications. And also, the map is very important that we have the marshlands and all of the....the terrain...so we'd know that we were to stay away in case of invasion. You stay away from the wet areas.

So this map that we're looking at right here is of the Ste. Mere Eglise.

Ste. Eglise.

....area and it shows the English Channel and then over in this region it shows these wavy lines which...

That's marshland. It's a... it's very wet...

Not a place you'd want to land troops.

No. But I saw...we landed in Utah Beach in marshland. We walked back through the marshes up to oh, knee-high in water. But to me...when I landed it was the first lull in bombing and there were so many dead littered in the marshlands that it was terrible and yet it was strangely beautiful because the iris...the blue and gold...the wild iris....you'd see the bodies laying between all these flowers and there was something so haunting and so still about the dead being so motionless.

Let's go back to your last...go back to what we were talking about earlier. So you were in the Bristol area having lunch and from there you went to...what was your next...?

We went to Bristol. That's where we got...we were told we will go in as buck privates and not have any uniforms and our Navy uniforms...to discard those. And we got outfitted in Bristol with our boots and our pants and we were a bunch of crum-bum privates, but I liked particularly...I liked...right close to where all this was happening was Albert. Albert was the gorilla at the zoo that went insane from the bombing. But I went in...but he was a nice, sweet Albert...he was...even though he was crazy. I want to get___________ And in Bristol they put a bronze monument to Albert that's there today.

Really?

Yeah. Then from Bristol...

Wait a minute...I want to get a clarification. So you changed out of your Navy uniforms into what?

Into the...

...Civilian or Army?

Buck private.

Army.

Army...buck private Army. We were landing with the Army and we wanted to look like just one of the Army.

O.K. So that was your orders...

Yeah.

...to change into Army clothes.

But that's against the Geneva Convention and we were warned-- don't be taken prisoner under any circumstance because if you're out of uniform you can be taken and shot immediately by the enemy without any...without any way of defending yourself.

Now did you leave from Bristol to go across the Channel or did you have another point of departure?

We left Bristol and in our uniforms and went to Cardiff. Then at Cardiff...see, we were a little bit disturbed because the 3rd of June had already come and passed and the invasion was to be on the 3rd, so we knew that it was a delay. But it was in Cardiff that we were billeted and in Army camp and I was billeted with the Army doctors, the medics. And I had a terrible time because they were all...they were all higher rank than I was and the Army...see, the Army...the junior officers, they all dined together and so forth and I was just a senior officer and I was not in a senior officer's uniform...Iwas in a private. What is a private doing with the senior officers?

Now in Cardiff...in Cardiff were there thousands of troops? I mean, what was the....?

I would say there were thousands there because the next day we loaded the ships with personnel...

O.K., so you observed all this loading?

Yes.

Of all the ships.

Yes.

Out of Cardiff. I tell you, we got on the ship and the crew of the ship said, "Oh, you lucky guys--you're going home." You know I got on the Venezia and they said, "Oh, you're lucky you're going home." We didn't say one word to get in and find a bunk and so forth and then after we'd drifted out into the Channel....we drifted, we didn't have any______because the ship is now under command of the United States Navy and you're going into the invasion of Normandy. And the crew said, "Oh, but my wife is meeting me at the dock." You know... "I'm supposed to be home in three days."

You knew you were going, right?

I knew we were going.

So that was not a surprise to you that the ship was heading for Normandy.

No, that was no surprise. I knew it was going to go for Normandy.

And so your orders were to be useful.

Yeah, make yourself useful.

And you still did not know exactly what your assignment was?

No, not exactly, by no means.

O.K., now when did you land...where did you land...where did the ship land and do you recall the day? Was that D-Day____or D-Day plus or what?

D-Day...it was D-Day.

So you landed on the 6th of June.

On the 6th of June we landed. But there's some argument because at first all the men were ready for H-hour disembarkment...these craft were supposed to come by alongside and then they'd take you into shore. The launch that came by and said, "Venezia...we don't have you on our record. We don't know who you are. Why are you here?" It was a ship that wasn't supposed to be there as far as...and we were supposed to be there, but somehow there's...what snafu is all about. Situation gets all messed up.

Now where...what area did your ship...?

My ship was at the Utah Beach.

You went in at Utah?

Yes.

O.K. Can you describe that day when you arrived at Utah? I mean, what was your...what is your recollection of what you observed?

Well, I was overwhelmed by the number of ships...absolutely overwhelmed. And I was...I was surprised to see, in spite of all the activity...the bombing on shore and so forth...our bombing...and they were bombing the beach head, the Germans. They couldn't get out to us and we were out of range in the ships as far as I know because none of the ships were bothered. The only thing that...some of our landing craft, though, they blew up in mines...mines at the beach head. And but that...that's as horrible as it is, you know. It didn't happen to you, so you're lucky...you don't worry too much about that. But to see a landing craft go up in the air and all these men flying up into the air...it was unbelievable. It didn't look like something real...it looked like something you'd see in the movies.

Now because of your intelligence work, were you also aware that when you landed at Utah they were also landing at Omaha, Sword, Juno and Gold?

Now I had that responsibility...of all the men, the 15 men that were landing...there were all sorts of beaches and designations. There were several that...each one landed alone by himself from another liberty ship, which I was on. So, I don't know why the captain wanted me to designate which beach head every man should be on. And the reason I chose Utah...because right there is a_____defense battery I wanted to see so badly right away. I think...then I felt terrible how it happened over on Omaha Beach. I thought they...you know...

Did you have any premonition when you left Cardiff about what might happen at Omaha or any of the other beaches since you had worked on the maps? You were familiar with all the...

Yes, I...yes...

Nazi fortifications, right?

Yes, I tell you I was so stupid. I was so optimistic that this is just a big pushover, which it wasn't, see? But I certainly rallied up the whole ship. They just thought it was...I mean the morale was high. But the shock to me was when I came to disembark...see, I'd never had any training. I didn't even know what a net would look like and I had my pack with all my intelligence information and bedroll and everything on my back and I looked down that rope...didn't seem too safe down it...it just strung into the side of the ship. And by the time I got on that rope ladder, it was so full of holes that you didn't know where you could step next going down. But I got down without falling. I felt proud of myself because...

And then you what...got into the landing craft?

Yeah.

And moved to the beach.

And then they took us to the beach and they hustled us inland as quick as they could because they were shelling the beach at that time. And...

What happened...now when did you...do you recall the hour that you actually hit the beach?

11:00. 11:00.

And how long did it take you to get off the beach?

Well, I would say...we were hustled off right away....we marched right on in. I marched in with the Army, but we didn't march in rank...you just marched in a group of men...you get in as quickly as you can. And I remember after seeing all the dead in these iris and all blue and gold, then I look up and here's a milkmaid out there with a cow....milking a cow under a tree.

As if nothing happened.

As though nothing happened. But I could [look] all around the place and see all these cows on their back with their feet up in the air. I didn't know that's the way cows...when they die they roll over on their back and their four feet go right up in the air. It was so strange.

Now did you see many casualties along the way there after that first day?

Yes. The farmers went about their business just as though nothing had happened. I guess they were stunned...they were shocked, but life has to go on.

And what did you do that first night? Where were you that first night?

That first night I was up in a strawberry patch and I laid my bedroll down next to the general and I said, "The poor farmer. Look, we're spoiling all his strawberries." He said, "Don't give it a thought. The United States Government will pay any claim the farmer makes against the government for his strawberries." Then I felt a little...he said, "Go ahead and help yourself." So we ate strawberries.

Now at that time, did you then realize what your assignment was? I mean, what was your purpose being over there?

Well...

Now were you doing intelligence work, were you______?

It was intelligence work. See, for instance if I went to a casemated battery or if I found any installation that I thought should be reportable, I'd make a report and send it out to the admiral's ship or take it out myself. I took my first report out myself to the admiral's ship because I wanted it to get there. That was the first...it was 10 days later...the 17th... 11 days later...that my first report went in. But I didn't realize that first report was worth so much in the intelligence in London.

What was your first report about?

It was a ski site.

O.K., tell us about that. What did you find?

A ski site...when you see it [in] aerial photographs, it looks like skis on the ground...buildings that look like skis. And they wanted to know why there was a curved end. Well, the curved end was...when I went through the site...was that they...it was for missile storage and if there was...if it didn't have the curved end, a shrapnel could ricochet down or if there was a bombing...they didn't want any danger of anything hitting these missiles and they lined the curved end with heavy planking so that any shell fragments would bury itself in the planking. Well, I had a wonderful time. I was all alone making the drawings...making the drawings, the plans...pacing it off and making a report and then I don't know how I got to the coast, though, to take it to the admiral's ship, but I got there. I don't know whether I flagged down a Jeep or someone driving. All I remember is that I got there and then I remember when I got there, there was that rope hanging down...that rope ladder. I'd never been up one...I'd only been down one once.

It's a little bit harder to get up, huh?

Yeah. They called down and asked me if I wanted the gangplank lowered down, as though...for me...the one person, you know...I said, "No, I'll climb up the rope," and I climbed up the rope. I got up there and got the...and Admiral Stark was in London at the time, so what do they do? They said, "How would you like to sleep in the admiral's bed tonight?" Well, that sounded wonderful to me, so they took all my clothes, I took a nice shower, got in the admiral's bed. They took all my clothes, laundered them...the seamen were wonderful...laundered all my clothes. But at 2:00 in the morning, they came running in and they picked up the whole mattress and bedding and everything and carried me out because the admiral was on board! And they brought in another mattress and made his bed up real fast.

You were heading towards Cherbourg, is that correct?

Yes.

So tell us...after you made your first report...kind of give us...take us along kind of a daily thing until you...some of your memorable experiences as you headed towards Cherbourg. Do you recall anything that was unusual, memorable?

Oh, the most memorable time I had was that night before Cherbourg fell. I'd taken over a house on the hill and we all had met there. All of us were wanting to get into Cherbourg...the rest of the task group...and we had the most wonderful dinner and this most beautiful view of all the hand-to-hand fighting out on the outer breakwater. We were close enough that we could see the men running around on the breakwater and seeing that fighting going on, but...butter had gone down to 10 cents a pound and so the little farm woman had a great big pot of butter on the stove, browning potatoes in butter. And oh, were they delicious. And she had a lamb on the spit in the fireplace and with all the wine and...we had a wonderful meal. The meal I remember better than any meal I had in France really.

And talking about food, what was the supply situation like? Did you ever have to worry about where your rations or your...

No.

Supplies were coming from after you landed?

No. No, there was always an abundance because when I was alone....I was walking...before I had a Jeep, the trucks would come by and they would toss you some rations.

Oh, o.k. More than you needed. So you never worried about your next meal?

No. We always had an extra two or three in your pack. In fact, I got so that I'd rather stop at a little French restaurant on the road and you give them your rations and they'll make you your lunch, no large. They'd bring you a nice lettuce and bring you....they'd keep your rations for them because they wanted what you had and we wanted what they had.

Little did they know...

Yeah. And the rations are terrible, you know. They were terrible.

Was it C or K rations? Or both?

Yeah.

Was that K rations that you got?

K rations and C rations, uh-huh.

And so what are some of the other either memorable people or unusual events that you experienced on your way to Cherbourg? Did you have any run-ins with the Nazis? What was that like? I mean, try to give us a sense of what the experience was as you headed toward your destination of Cherbourg.

Well, D-Day plus 3 when I was in Pont du Hoc and I saw a terrible disaster there of all the dead and their wrapping the dead in pouring down rain and I was miserable...I hadn't had a shave for several days and I was muddy and I looked terrible. And I went down the hill to Grandcamp and there was a Villa du Soto...the Duke and Dutchess of du Soto, it was their home...and it was a villa which the Nazi officers occupied. And I didn't know this until I went down to the front door to see what the commotion was because I could hear an old lady wailing and that was the Dutchess of du Soto and her husband, who they had....I learned this all from, of all persons, from Walter Cronkite. I didn't know him at the time...I just knew him by the name 'Walt.' And I knew that he was the most respected and the senior of all the war correspondents that were there. Now the war correspondents took over this house and I learned now from then on if I could take over a German residence or anything like that because they were gone and it would be empty...that's why I had that lovely place in Cherbourg later on. But the Duke and Dutchess...they wanted to go back to the garage...they saw that the whole interior of the living room was vandalized. They burned all the furniture in the fireplace and the piano had only one leg...the piano did. And it was sort of a sorry sight for an elderly couple to see what...how...the destruction in their home.

This was Nazi officers that did that?

Yes. But Walter Cronkite took me on into the house and introduced me to the correspondents and said, "Give Warren a place to sleep tonight." Now he didn't know who I was. He didn't know...he knew I was...probably a spy, see. He knew...and so I went upstairs and I got a very nice room and I had a roommate...

Was that your first good night's sleep?

Huh?

Was that your first good night's sleep?

Oh, yes. Oh, that was heaven. The only thing that bothered me...the little chamber maid that was making up the bed and doing all the work...she came up and asked me if I was a Catholic and I said no, I wasn't, I was a Presbyterian. And she didn't know what that was and she said, "Just like the Bosch," and spit at me. And I didn't like that. I said, "From now on, I'm a Catholic." But then I look over at my roommate and he was...oh, he was a prince of a fellow. He didn't have to worry because he had the Star of David on...

Oh, he was Jewish.

Yeah. And I tell you...you know what...he gave me...he was from a very wealthy background, I know, because he gave me a tailor made shirt. I can't...one of his tailor made shirts that he had made in New York for his...

Well, now you said he didn't have to worry since the Nazis had exterminated over 6 million Jews. Was it...why did you think he didn't have to worry? It was an anti-Semitic country, France...

This little chambermaid wasn't going to spit on him because they felt a great compassion and love for the Jewish people, you know.

Interesting.

There weren't very many Jews in the Arromanches area. I don't recall...that's one reason our other officers that were interested in politics and so forth...said that the Jews are not farmers in France.

No, that's probably true.

They aren't...they stay in cities and they're merchants and teachers and scholars.

So how far from Cherbourg were you when you stayed that night with Walter Cronkite?

Oh, that was D-Day plus 3...I can't tell you how many miles it was at the time...I'd have to look at the map. But I will tell you I walked all the way to Cherbourg from Grandcamp.

And that was a distance of how much?

Oh, I did...let's see. It took me...well, I don't know. You just get on walking the roads. I can't tell you...

Now at some point did you know that Cherbourg was your destination?

Oh, yes.

Where you were supposed to...

Yes, because that was the Navy center. The headquarters...the arsenal there...there's a big naval base there.

O.K., now tell me what happened after you left Walter Cronkite...as you continued to journey to Cherbourg. What did you encounter...who did you encounter...more Nazis or Germans?

No, I tell you...I followed the Army and I encountered no...

Now which Army? Was that Patton's Army you were following?

No, it was the...oh...was it the First Army, Second Army_____? Well, it was the Army that was...General...what's his name...Anyway, I was going to say, as we took the road....no, it was the...

O.K., well, it's not important who the general was.

No, it is important because I did meet him, but at our dinner party that we had at...in Grandcamp....the first dinner party that the...really that the foreign correspondents had...Ernie Pyle was there, but there were a lot of celebrities there. But also the general's aide was there....the general's aide wanted to take me aside and wanted me to go out and get a sack of flour for the general. That's another story, but...

And what was your...when you got to...as you were continuing towards Cherbourg...relate a couple of your daily experiences that might have been_______.

Well, that first...the first day they said we were going to Isigny and then Carentan. I remember that walking was interesting to see the dogfights up in the sky...the British and the Nazi planes trying to destroy each other. That was interesting to watch that because it had happened, but to really see it happen, it was very, very interesting. And at the same time, to see maybe 30 or 40 school children led by a father out in the field where they were living in the field out away from the cities where they thought it would be the safest for the children.

Now when you were looking at these dogfights, did you recognize the aircraft...were they...in terms of were they British or American aircraft?

I think they were British.

Too high...

Yeah, they were vague. And the Nazi...I was more concerned with just getting ahead and going through to the different cities. And I was safe going...after that going down...but what amused me...there was a big sign on the dairy, that "Through all of this we haven't missed one delivery"...the dairy. They were proud of the fact that the invasion could sweep through that city and they haven't missed one delivery of a quart of milk...or liter of milk.

Do you remember approximately what date it was when you finally got through to the Cherbourg area?

The Cherbourg...when the day Cherbourg fell...see, we weren't allowed to keep....see, it had to be after the 17th of June...that's my first report and the report...it was after that, but really...1 would say Cherbourg must have fell about the 20th of June because these generals...the brass from England, they knew where...1 don't know how they knew where I lived, but they knew where I lived. The came to my house at 49 Rue Jeanne D'Arc...

And where was that? In Cherbourg?

In Cherbourg. And see, I saw...I took over a house that some Nazi officers lived. I didn't have to worry about taking over the house. I found out the rent was paid until the first of October, so I could live there until the first of October before I'd have to worry about the Navy paying the rent on the house.

Now were you still in Army uniform at this point...

Yes, yes.

Or did you go back to Navy uniforms?

I was in the Army uniform until after the 4th of July, when I found my sea bag. I finally found...it was lost. And I had my Navy...just the Navy khaki...my dress uniforms were all in London. I had no reason to have a dress uniform in the battle area. But I always wore my GIs when I went to the front.

O.K., now after you got this house in Cherbourg, what was your assignment?

Had you received orders as to a more specific assignment?

No, I received no orders...just "make yourself useful."

And so how did you make yourself useful?

Sending reports in. I sent...and what provoked my captain in London is I sent reports directly to where I thought they should go and sent a copy to my captain.

And the captain's name was...?

Voile. And he liked me and he didn't like me. It was...I liked him, but I felt that...1 felt that I had done so much for the British and the British...I had such fine letters and praise from the British...I'd like to have him given me those letters because they wanted...the British thought I could be promoted in rank. They thought I was under-ranked for the work I was doing. And that would be important to me, of course.

Now was Voile British or American?

Pardon?

Was Captain Voile British or American?

Oh, he was American.

O.K., o.k.

He was American. But he liked me for one thing...and I'm allergic to coffee. And he complained...I had to meet him once a week and have a little social talk with him and he always complained about his headaches and he was having a terrible time. And I said, "Well, you're sitting here drinking coffee all day long. Why don't you just lay off the coffee and see what happens?" And the next time I saw him he said, "I laid off the coffee and I'll never drink another drop of coffee as long as I live." He said, "That was giving me my headaches."

Now Captain Voile was not over in Cherbourg with you--he was still back in London?

He was in London.

Uh-huh. And why don't you...you mentioned a Captain Ives to me.

Yes.

Why don't you briefly tell us about your...

Well, then I went back one day to Cherbourg...in fact, I remember that day because it was the first of August because on the 2nd of August is when Patton made his breakthrough. And I don't really remember the day, but I read it in Churchill's memoirs of the war, see? And it...it was...that was the day was the 2nd. I went back to Cherbourg that day after two days without any sleep...I was at the front. I don't know what information I was getting at the time, but I thought I'd better get back to Cherbourg and the Army thought I should, too. And I needed some much needed rest. Well, since I got back, Captain Ives had summoned for me...and it was...summoned for me and then he saw me out of uniform and he said he could take me out and shoot me right now because you're against Geneva Convention that should be out of uniform. "If you were a Navy officer..." And "Do you have any identification?" I showed him my dogtag and he said, "You could have taken that off of a body." He didn't believe me...he thought I was an AOL or...

AWOL.

Yeah, but then I...when he questioned me further...I told him about these reports that I'd made, I told him about Sottevast and Valognes and the V-ls and V-2s and all that and then he asked me right away, "Well, did you escort Churchill when he was here?" which was just about three days ago, see, before. And I said, "No, I didn't." And he said...and I said, "And Churchill did not get to the ski site because he wouldn't have time to get to the ski site and then fly back to London."

Now Ives was with you in Cherbourg?

He was in Cherbourg.

You did not get along with him, right?

Well, he did...I'll tell you....I've never met a man that had so much charisma. I didn't like him because he didn't like me. But I could see how everyone adored him because there was something about him that...he has like star appeal. Everyone just adored Captain Ives. And...

And he did die in...

Yes, he did not take to my intelligence. You see, my intelligence was that the Nazis had fled and took all the Nazi soldiers with them. They left 5,000 Russian prisoners. Well, Captain Ives...I'm sure he saw them...he didn't tell me this...I shouldn't second guess him...but it was natural for him to think, "What in the hell are 5,000 Russian POW's doing here?" He didn't realize that they were getting these V-ls and V-2s and this site ready so they could bomb back England and they needed one man for each missile that they would fire because it would [end?] the man's life to fire it.

Is that how Captain Ives met his demise?

He went into a hotbed of these Russians...he thought he was going to take living German prisoners home, but they...

O.K., now I want to kind of change horses here, so to speak. Tell us about your taking command of the Port of Cherbourg as JOC.

I missed the connection with Ives...I was supposed to be with him, but he stood me up. He went ahead of me and I had enough time to go back, so I went to Cherbourg and Commander Marvin told me that I didn't want him or me to be with him because we were not good for the morale of the group because we both felt that we could not make this skirmish into enemy territory. And did I get off the track? I hope not...Oh, then Captain...Lieutenant Commander Marvin said he's dead tired and he doesn't know what's going on. He said that there's not a ship in the harbor that should be there, that he does not know what's going on and would I take the JOC for the night and he'd take it the next morning. He said it shouldn't be anything...I could go to bed...there was a cot in the corner there. But aha--when he left, then things really started happening. Oh, there's a British pilot down in the...you know, in the Channel...the British called...could I send a patrol craft or something out to...

...pick him up....

...pick him up...no, but there's some yachtsman who had gone into Dunkirk in evacuating the British and they were game to go out and pick...

So you sent them.

So I sent them out and...but then I get a radio from them that a German U-boat has surfaced and was shooting at them, so they were heading back through the fog....fortunately there was fog. But they did hit the ship...the boat...and they were limping back towards Cherbourg, but they said their compass and everything...nothing was working and could I bring them in on a radar beam.

So you had your work cut out for you. And you knew nothing about running a port, is that correct?

No, I know nothing about running a port. But I got them back, but not with the radar beam. The radar stations weren't open, but I was smart enough to call out to the breakwater where I had been the day it fell, and there was a German radar station out there and so I called out there and I said, "Is the sergeant there that showed me the German radar station there?" "Oh, yes." I said, "Could he bring a little yacht on a radar beam?" "Oh, yes." So we brought them back under German equipment.

So how long did you serve in that capacity before you were relieved of your duties at the port?

Well, I was there just overnight...at 8:00 I was relieved. But you see at 8:00...at 4:00 in the morning I knew that Captain Ives and the whole entourage of 57 men would all end up in a fountain of blood by, you know, victims of these Russian POWs. The POWs...they would not know how to communicate...they spoke only Russian. They didn't know French or German or English...

Well, that must have been a shock to you when you heard about it. It was a shock...it was a shock when I heard my name was on the list because...

You were supposed to be with them.

I was supposed to be with them and I was on the list and so was Lieutenant Commander Marvin. He was supposed to be with them. But at the very last moment he said he was going to go early, he was going to skip me and he told Marvin to stay and open the JOC. Now it was the captain's duty to open that JOC and...well, I was glad I was there because I knew the code name for Cherbourg and every ship in that harbor was there and came in on time and should be there.

What was the code name for Cherbourg...do you remember?

Watson.

Oh, o.k., good. So you...your knowledge...your intelligence knowledge served you well in that capacity.

Oh, yes. I'll tell you...I was making myself useful!

You fulfilled your assignment.

Yeah.

So after Cherbourg, did you then go back to the United States? Where did you go from Cherbourg?

Cherbourg I went to Rand...I was following Patton. I went to Rand and I went to Le Mans and I ended up in Chateau D'un. And you see, so many things have happened on the road and on the way and I knew all the...fortunately, I knew the Army very well and they knew me and they respected me because in London, they went through a mapmaking course that I taught every morning from 9 to 11...a group of Army officers would come through. I didn't know I'd ever see them again and they're calling me by name. They're calling me "Captain Warren." Because that was what the colonel called me. My uniform was Air Corps green and no one knew Air Corps green was Navy...United States Navy. They thought it was some other uniform. I passed_________.

Now did you end up in Paris?

Yes. We finally got to Paris. Finally got to Paris.

And how long were you in Paris?

Well, the first day I went into Paris....Paris hadn't fallen, so I had to get back. But I didn't...I had a very interesting time that first day...

Are you saying that it was still under Nazi control?

Yeah, still under Nazi control. There was still so much shooting going on...I didn't see any. I could see there was some fighting going on up on the rooftops...I could hear planes flying down the river and a lot of activity on the river. The Nazis were fleeing, really.

And so when you got to Paris, you were with what unit?

All by myself in my Jeep. I did pick up with an Army captain, at Chateau D'Un, who wanted to go into Paris with me. But we didn't know that Paris hadn't fallen yet. But you know the streets were beautiful...the red, white and blue...the American flag, the British flag and the French flag...all flying, all floors. It was magnificent. And I was right there, you know...right there on Rue St. Honore, where all the perfume shops were and I go into one...I'm on the street, I've parked my Jeep. I'm looking now...my wife wanted some La Donna perfume. Well, there was La Donna shop right there.

That's what I was going to ask you...it was going to be actually my next question...which is, how did you stay in touch with your wife and your family during this whole time, from the time you enlisted to arriving in Paris and then after you left Paris until the time you got back to the United States. How did you...?

Just letters...APOs, letters...Navy.

And how often did you get mail?

Well, maybe...maybe every 10 days. And then you'd get a whole stack of mail...

At one time.

Yeah.

They'd follow you around.

Yes. And... But I did meet at that bar...someone pulled me into a bar and it was Dutchess, an American Philadelphia girl that married a French duke. She was holding a cocktail party for all the Americans. And I finally found man next to me that was a little bit too fresh, I thought, so I got up to walk out and I thanked him and walked out...he followed me and then he nailed me against the wall. And I told him...he asked me something and I said, "It's none of your goddamned business," and I ducked and went on my way. And then finally...my Jeep was still parked there and I got the perfume and so forth. Oh, they gave you things, too. There's a ring that was given to me...a beautiful ring. My daughter-in-law has it now. But I get back to the bar and the Dutchess of D'Ouzes says, "What do you have against Ernest Hemingway?"

Oh, so that was Ernest Hemingway?

That was Ernest Hemingway that was too familiar.

So you had some very special adventures. Now let me ask you this...you kind of told us how you entertained yourself, but while you were in the service, did you ever have the opportunity to see any of those USO shows with Bob Hope or...?

Not one.

Not any kind of organized entertainment.

Not once.

Even when you were at the front or anything like that?

When I was at the...well I was near one once. I said I'd like to go and see the show and they said it's only for enlisted men...officers aren't allowed.

Really? That's interesting. Did you keep a diary while you were...?

No, that was...you can't...it's illegal.

O.K. Do you recall V-E Day...when you heard about V-E Day? Were you in Paris then?

No, I was back in Washington.

You had already gone back to Washington.

Yes, uh-huh. After Paris fell I had a choice to go home or SHAEF wanted me. Now SHAEF...I don't know what SHAEF stands for.

It's o.k.

Huh?

We all know what SHAEF is.

You know?

Yes.

I don't know.

So you had a choice to either join up with SHAEF or go back to Washington. So from Paris you went to what...Le Havre?

So from Paris...no, I went back to Cherbourg and then I notified the Navy that I was leaving and they wanted to come out and see my quarters. And when they saw the room I was in they said, "Your quarters are nicer than the admiral's." They said, "You should be ashamed of yourself living in such luxury with all these poor guys..." But I said, "It's all paid for by the Nazis."

O.K., so I now I want to cover from the time...where did you actually leave to go back to the United States to Washington?

I left from North Ireland.

From Ireland?

Ireland, yes. I had to...they flew me over to Ireland to take a...I was going home by a clipper. I had to wait one week before...in Ireland before I could be flown home.

So you came back by air?

I came back by air.

O.K. and landed where? [End of tape two; beginning of tape three] You were telling me something about the thought that occurred to you about when you were over in the Cherbourg area.

Well, I've been at the front many times and it's very strange. War is not exciting like it is in the movies...that there are lulls and most of the war in time is a lull and then you have a hot and heavy battle, but it's brief and a long lull. So I've been to the front like that and it never bothered me because I've always had a lull. But I was at the front only once and it was in the Cherbourg area. It was north of Valognes and south of Cherbourg where the two armies were shelling each other, but the front was between the shelling and we....and be underneath the canopy of all this going on overhead, going back and forth...it can become very, very nervous and trying. I had no business being there because I'm not supposed to be in...and I thought...I always get ahead of myself. But...so I went back. But I felt I shouldn't have gone back...I should have stayed with those men. But I'm not a combat soldier...I had no weapon.

You carried no weapons with you?

The only weapon I had was a .45 pistol for self defense.

Oh, o.k...well, I'm glad you told me that about the story about the combat situation. Now let's go back to...you're in Paris, you receive orders to go back to London...

I didn't receive orders to go back to London, except I had been advised that you stay in France until Paris falls. And after Paris falls, we had targets in Paris who look at certain officers and so forth. But they were completely empty...there was no targets of any value. Then I go back to Cherbourg and I had orders waiting for me there....and for transportation to flyback...

To London.

To London. And back in London it was wonderful. We found out we could have reservations at the Ritz Hotel.

O.K., now when you were in London, was that when V-E Day occurred?

No.

Where were you when V-E Day occurred?

Oh....that occurred after the Battle of the Bulge and that was months later. See, I was in Washington, D.C....Anacostia my home was...and my son was even born by that time, I believe. When was...

Well, let's back up a minute. Let's just cover...you receive orders to go to London, o.k., and you get to London and how long were you there?

Oh, I was there just a couple of days.

And then on to Ireland.

And then into Ireland.

And then you were flown back to the United States.

Flown back to the United States.

In a PBY.

In a PBY.

And do you recall where you landed?

I remember flying over Boston....

O.K.

...and I'm sure we landed in the Washington, D.C. area in Chesapeake Bay...I'm quite sure because I didn't have to get out and take a train anyplace. I was just...was home.

Oh, o.k., so you were...so then basically you were in the Washington area and that was your assignment?

Yes.

And how long were you in Washington and where were you assigned to?

I was assigned to the Photographic Intelligence Center and then...oh, as soon as I got there, though...______was sort of disappointed in me or surprised. He said, "You report downtown to a certain...in Washington, D.C..." There was the Loft Building and I had a whole floor and I had 500 Waves....oh, it couldn't be that many. But I had Waves...all from Japan. All American girls that had never been to the United States. They were assigned to me to make our harbor report and why that happened is when I was in Cherbourg, I wrote a letter to Forestal. I didn't go through the chain of command...I wrote a letter to the Secretary of the Navy telling him what was wrong with the invasion of Normandy. And right away I was in charge of an intelligence section there.

And how long did you do that?

I was there up until they dropped the bomb on Hiroshima. Then that was over...that was the end of the war.

So you were in Washington until they dropped the bomb on Hiroshima...and that was August 6,1945.

Uh-huh.

And then what happened...what was your reaction when you heard about the dropping of the bomb?

Where was I?

No, I said what was your reaction? What did you think? Did you know anything about it?

I knew nothing about it, nor did I know how...what a big...I couldn't imagine any bomb could be that big to do the destruction that it did. It's beyond my comprehension. I'm not very smart in ordnance anyway.

What did you think when you heard about it though?

Oh, I said, "All the work I did was for nothing." It broke my heart. I had all these harbor reports going and publications going and I told the Navy, "We should continue doing these harbor reports and we should always have a library in_____department of all the big ports all over the world and keep these harbor reports up to date."

But when the bomb was dropped, did you have any conception in your mind that this was going to end the war?

No. I knew it would be over, yes. After two of them...there was the Hiroshima and the Nagasaki and...

And then on the 14th is when Japan surrendered...of August...August 14th.

Yes.

And then after the war ended...

After the war ended, then it was waiting to be mustered out.

O.K. and you...and so you waited from the end of the war, which was August 1945 until January 15,1946. So it took another number of months...

Yes, it took a number of months to get squared away.

And were you in the Washington area all this time?

In the Washington area, um-hmm.

And your wife was with you?

Yes, see, it so happened I had orders for Pearl. I was going to leave just before this all happened, you see. I had orders...but living in Washington...and I was in the car pool and there was a man in BUPERS, an officer, he said, "If you take your leave..."____going to Pearl, I needed a leave. "If you take your leave in Washington, D.C., then you won't have to go to Pearl and you'll be mustered out." And so I gambled on that and I stayed and I got my orders changed not to go to Pearl Harbor and they kicked me out of the Navy.

How did you feel about that--leaving? Did that transition to civilian life...was that difficult?

I thought it would be, but it wasn't. See, when I got...I'll tell it was wonderful. I went back to RKO. They had a...they sat down before the war...

So wait a minute...you were with RKO before the war?jHarvey A. Warren:: Oh, yes.

All right, now...what did you do in the immediate days afterwards? Did you go immediately back to RKO or...?jHarvey A. Warren:: Well, first of course I drove from Washington to Memphis and visited my wife's folks. And then my son was ill and we went down to New Orleans because it's warmer and he got better and then we drove all the way through across Texas and then got into Southern California.

And your son was born while you were in Washington?

Yes, uh-huh.

And what is his name?

Harvey Alan Warren, Jr.

And did you go back to work immediately? Did you take some time off after leaving the service?

Well, after I got into...after my leave...well, I had my leave... I was out of the service. I don't know where my money came from, though. I don't know what happened. I do know this, though--I drove up to Seattle. We did a lot of driving because they hadn't seen the grandson. And they adored the grandson and everything was nice. And then I come home and I go to RKO.

And this was in what city?

That's in Hollywood, California. I noted Charlie Pike and Charlie Pike, "Get back on the job."

O.K., and while you were in the service, did you make any close friendships that you continued after you left the service?

Yes, I made several but they didn't last very long, except one lasted for a long, long time.

And who was that?

That was Captain...his name...Captain Kelley in the Army. We had no duty together...he was in Washington, D.C. and he was in finance and he was the controller of U.S. Steel.

And so you just developed a relationship with him while you________?

Well, we continued the relationship principally because it was convenient geographically. He was from Southern California and I was from Southern California, and they had their domestic problems and we helped them so much...Marge and I. We helped them. They separated and we got them back together again and...

And did you ever join any veteran's organizations after you left the service?

Just the Retired Officers Association, and it was not really an active organization...just a magazine.

Veterans of Foreign Wars...did you belong to that?

No, I didn't.

And let me backtrack a minute. Were you awarded any medals or citations for your service?

Yes.

Do you remember what those are?

Well, I had the European Theater of War...European Theater Ribbon and also an Admiral's Citation Ribbon.

O.K.

It seems like...two little ribbons...who wants just two little ribbons?

Well, did they have Battle Stars on them?

Two... yeah, they had two stars...

Two Battle Stars.

Uh-huh.

And...

But that was a citation, I thought.

Well, they're ribbons and each star is a Battle Star, so it showed that you were at D-Day, I imagine.

At D-Day and...

You know better than I. And you got the Victory Medal, which was given to everyone who served, correct?

I didn't get any Victory Medal.

Well, you're eligible for it, so maybe you should apply for it. That's not uncommon. Many veterans have medals that they earned that they never received. So, let me get a little philosophical in terms of your military experience...how it influenced you or influenced your thinking about the war or about the military in general. Do you have any thoughts on that?

Well, no. I couldn't be a military man. I couldn't stay in the Navy. Actually, it was a different...after the war it's different. When you have war you have....I just couldn't stay in the Navy...I couldn't. I couldn't even stay...the State Department wanted me in the worst way. They wanted me so badly that I could...they wanted me to join without any 37 examinations whatsoever. They kept a pretty good check on me. See, I was with FBI men and I knew S...O.S.S.

Well, with your intelligence training...

But I knew what they wanted me for. They wanted me for the CIA and I didn't...

You had no interest.

I had...I didn't like the way they did things.

So in a sense, then your military work did influence you. You knew you didn't want to do that type of thing anymore.

No.

And how did your service and experiences affect your life after you left the service, do you think? What do you think about that? Thinking about your service...you military service...how do you think it affected your life after you left the service?

I think I became much more serious. I have religious values. I'm more like moral values. My religion is sort of very private, but...I have a guilt complex and every once and awhile it hits me because Captain Ives should have been stopped and I should have been the one to stop him. See and that hits me all the time...the guilt, the shame, the guilt.

And you feel guilty for a decision he made?

I feel guilty for not...not being capable of telling him not to go on this mission.

But he was a superior officer to you...

He was.

Do you really think that you would have had any influence on his decision?

Well, for instance...I tried to influence him and I didn't. But I reached a point where I looked at all the men sitting there and taking on this skirmish and I thought, if I just took out my pistol and shot him in the leg I could have stopped the whole thing. But then what would happen to me? He could take me out and shoot me for being out of uniform.

Shoot him in the other leg.

You can't win for losing.

That's right. Well, I just as an aside, I don't think you should feel any guilt over that. This was a grown man who was a superior officer and he made the decision and frankly, I don't think anything you could have said or done would have changed his decision.

Well, you're saying exactly what Commander Marvin said to me. He said...and he was his closest friend. It was a...it was a strange friendship. Marvin was the Mayor of Portsmouth and he was the commodore of the yacht club and he was in the cream of society and in New England's social life and society is quite different than in the west here. And Marvin introduced him into that society. He...

Well, is there anything besides this thought that you've just expressed about Captain Ives that affected your life after you left the service? Did it help or hinder your career in any way?

I would say all experience is valuable and I'd say it's valuable because you can make use of it. And it's very valuable to me....it didn't hinder, it helped me. It helped me to perhaps be more thoughtful or...

To have a direction...more of a direction perhaps.

Yes...I could understand human relationships better. But I was at such a tremendous disadvantage when I went into Ives and being in the dirty, mud-splattered, needing a shave.

Those are some of the things that you remember now.

Yeah.

The discomforts of war.

Yeah.

And as we come to the end of this interview, is there anyone that you would like to dedicate...any entity...grandchildren, children, comrades...that you would like to dedicate this recording to?

Well, I think to my family....the Warren Family...all of them...all of them. I say all of them because I know my grandson is very much interested in all of this and my granddaughters are, too. And my daughter-in-law in Florida is...everyone is supportive.

Well, your story has been fascinating. Your involvement in the planning of D-Day is an amazing story and I thank you for contributing your thoughts on that.

I have an ego and I would like to mark it somehow... "Snafu"...the story. I would like...and I'm not interested in financial gain. I'm interested in...I just hope that it was good enough to be published or be used in some way. I'd like it as a motion picture, of course.

And "Snafu," of course, is your memoirs about D-Day.

Yes.

Well, I hope that happens for you. And on behalf of the Historical Society, I want to thank you for sharing your recollections of your World War II experiences with us. And I want to thank you for the service and the sacrifices you made in World War II. I hope that future generations will come to realize that the courage and sacrifice made by your generation that we enjoy the freedom that we have today. Because if it wasn't for your generation, the whole story would probably be very different.

Yes, when it happened...when it happened. I want to say that I...it's been a privilege and an honor to tell you of my memoirs. It really has been. And I appreciate it.

Thank you. It's been my pleasure and it's a joy to know you. Thank you, Harvey.

[End of Interview]